Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

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Sir Tyriel Firebrand
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Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-12-17

Well here ya go guys, this has been about a year in the making. I tried to streamline the weapons rules, make somethings a little better, and give a little more leeway for construction and creativity. Its a big proposal so I made it a little easier for you by putting CHANGES in RED ITALICS. I also tell you what I REMOVED by putting it in BOLD and placing it in brackets. I would like to hear your opinions, I have already took this to the NC and they said it was all safe.

Weapons
Weapons in Darkon are safely constructed, well‐padded representations of typical fantasy or medieval weaponry. Weapons must have a stiff core, which is padded with a closed‐cell,semi‐hard type of foam; all types of metal cores are prohibited. At no time should the weapon’s core be felt through the foam padding. The entire surface of the weapon must be padded with the exception of the handle or gripping surface. The striking surfaces of all normal weapons must have a cloth cover of black, gray, or brown color.

All weapons must have a well‐padded "pommel," which is the non‐striking end of the weapon below the gripping surface or handle. Pommels must be at least two inches in diameter [This text (3" in the case of polearms) is removed] and covered with cloth or PlastiDip®. Any swung weapon up to 3’ in length must have a striking surface of at least 6”; any swung weapon over 3’ in length must have a striking surface of at least 12” unless otherwise stated. Any non‐striking surface of a weapon may be covered in PlastiDip®.

All weapons must follow certain size requirements to be considered a particular type of weapon. The following is a list of the weapons that are legal in Darkon, along with their color classification and size requirements.

Long Sword or Short Sword(White weapon)
Long or short swords must have a blade of at least 16" in length and less than 36" in length. With respect to game mechanics,there is no difference between a long sword and a short sword. Both types are commonly referred to as "white swords". The blade must have easily distinguishable, squared‐off “flats” and edges, and its thickness(edge) must not be more than 2/3 of its width (flat). The handle of a long or short sword may not exceed the length of the striking surface, or 28", whichever is shorter. All long and short swords must have quillons, which is a crossbar of foam between the sword's blade and its handle.

HandAxe (White weapon)
Hand axes must have an overall length (from tip to end of pommel) of at least 18” and less than 36”. [This text, A hand axe must have a blade that extends at least 6” from the core and a striking surface of at least 6” in length. has been removed] The blade must have easily distinguishable, squared‐off “flats” and edges, and its thickness(edge) must not be more than 2/3 of its width (flat). Hand axes may have a blade on each side of the shaft. The handle of an axe may not exceed ⅓ of the overall length of the weapon. The shaft of a hand axe must be well padded.

Club(Yellow weapon)
Clubs must have an overall length between 18” and 6½’. Unlike a sword, which has a flat "blade" or striking surface, a club has a rounded striking surface, which must be at least 2.5” in diameter. The handle of a club cannot exceed the length of the striking surface, or 28”, whichever is shorter. Clubs are not required to have quillon.

Bar (Yellow weapon)
[This text, Bars must have an overall length between 18” and 6½’. Similar to a long or short sword,the blade must have a width of at least 3” and a depth (or thickness) of at least 1½”. has been removed] Bars fall under the same construction rules as Great swords and short swords. Bars may not have quillons.

Mace (Yellow weapon)
Maces must have an overall length between 18” and 6½’. Maces have a rounded "head" which is affixed to the top of the shaft. The head of a mace must be at least 6" in length (see above), and at least 2.5” in diameter. The handle of a mace may not exceed ⅓ of the overall weapon length. The shaft of a mace must be well padded.

Hammer (Yellow weapon)
Hammers must have an overall length between 18” and 6½’.Hammers must have a large foamhead, which may be designed in any fashion to resemble a type of hammer. The handle of a hammer may not exceed ⅓ of the overall weapon length. The shaft of a hammer must be well padded.

Flail and Morning Star (Yellow weapon)
Flails and morning stars must have a shaft with a length of 8” to 12” (including the pommel), which has a solid core and is well padded except on the gripping surface. They must have a cloth and foam "chain" with a length of 8” to 12”. The chain is composed of 1" to 2" wide foam links spaced no more than 1/2" apart and the foam links must either be attached to the chain, or be packed tightly enough that they do not expose more than½” of the chain. The head of a flail must be made from a core‐less piece of foam, which may be no more than 1’ long and must be at least 3" wide. The head of a morning star must be a round piece of coreless foam with a diameter between 6" and 8". Flail and morning star
heads must be coreless because they are head legal weapons.

Quarterstaff (Yellow weapon)
A quarterstaff must have a length of 4’to 6½’. The entire shaft is considered to be a striking surface, with the exception of the gripping surface, therefore a quarterstaff must be well padded from end to end.

Dagger (Red weapon)
Daggers must have a striking surface between 6" and 9" in length. The total length of a dagger may not exceed 18”. [this text, “the minimum length of a short sword.” has been removed.] The tip of the dagger must have additional padding since this weapon is used for thrusting only.

Spear (Red weapon)
Spears must have an overall length between 3½’ and 10’. They must have a well‐padded head of at least 3” in diameter since they are used exclusively for thrusting. [The shaft must be well padded with the exception of the gripping surface. has been removed] This weapon must have ⅓ of its length covered in courtesy padding(this includes the head).

Javelin(Red, missile weapon)
A javelin must be between 4’ and 5’ in length. The core of a javelin must be made of ½” thick PVC pipe or hollow fiberglass. A PVC cap, no rebar, must be securely fastened to both ends of the shaft. The entire core of a javelin must be padded with clima‐tubing, or similar hard cell foam. This padding must be glued to the core. Once padded, the shaft of a javelin must have a diameter of at least 2”. The padded shaft must then be covered with duct tape applied lengthwise.

[The head of a javelin must be constructed with uncompacted soft cell foam and measure 4” in diameter and 3” in thickness. There must also be a 4” in diameter and 1” thick layer of hard cell foam between the head and the shaft javelin.

The entire head of the javelin must be covered in red cloth. The pommel of a javelin must be constructed with uncompacted soft cell foam and measure 3” in diameter and 2” in thickness. There must also be a 3” in diameter and 1” thick layer of hard cell foam between the pommel and the javelin shaft. The pommel must be covered with black, brown, or gray cloth. A javelin must be marked with blue tape on the shaft to signify that it is a throwing weapon.

Weapon Marshal may cut into a Javelin to ensure proper, safe construction. Note: A javelin is a throwing only weapon. It cannot be
used to thrust or parry. Has been removed]





Javelin (Red, missile weapon)
Javelins are between 4’ and 5’ in length. The core of a javelin must be ½” nominal pipe size PVC pipe, or hollow fiberglass of no greater than ¾” outer diameter. Thick leather and/or PVC pipe caps must be securely fastened to both ends of the core.
To make the javelin shaft, the entire core must be padded with Climatube or other closed cell foam. This foam may be covered in cloth tape This foam must be glued to the core.
The head of a javelin must be constructed with uncompacted soft cell foam and measure 3” in diameter. There must also be a 3” in diameter and 1” thick layer of closed cell foam between the head and the capped javelin core. The entire head of the javelin must be covered in black, brown, or grey cloth.
The pommel of a javelin must be at least 2” in diameter. The pommel must be covered with black, brown, or gray cloth.
A Weapon Marshal may cut into a Javelin to ensure proper, safe construction.
A javelin is a throwing only weapon. It cannot be used to thrust or parry.



Great Sword(Black weapon)
Great swords must have a handle at least 1' in length and a striking surface at least 36" in length. The blade must have easily distinguishable,squared‐off “flats” and edges, and its thickness(edge) must not be more than 2/3 of its width (flat). The handle on a great sword may not exceed 28". A great sword may not have an overall length that exceeds 6½'. Great swords must be swung with two hands to administer black damage and will administer white damage if swung single‐handedly. All greats words must have quillons.

Battle‐Axe (Black, Shield‐destroying Weapon)
Battle‐Axes must have an overall length between 3’ and 10’. [This text “A battle‐axe must have a blade that extends at least 9” from the core” has been removed] The blade must have easily distinguishable, squared‐off “flats” and edges, and its thickness(edge) must not be more than 2/3 of its width (flat), and a striking surface of at least 1’ in length. The weapon must have an easily distinguishable axe shape. Battle‐axes may have a blade on each side of the shaft. The shaft of a battle‐axe must be well padded. The handle of a Black-axe may not exceed ⅓ of the overall weapon length. Battle‐axes must be swung with two hands to administer black damage and break shields and will administer white damage if swung single‐handedly.

[This text “Halberd(Black, Shield‐destroying Weapon)
Halberds must have an overall length between 6’ and 10’. The blade of a halberd must be at least 18" long, at least 2” thick, and extend at least 1’ from the shaft. The shaft of a halberd must be well padded.Halberds must be swung with two hands. See the section on Shields below for more information.” has been removed.]


White Glaive (White weapon)
White glaives must have an overall length of at least 5’ and less than 7’, with a maximum core diameter of 1”. The blade must be between 18” to 24” in length, 4” wide, and 2” thick. At least 1/3 of the weapon’s total length must be blade, up to the maximum blade size. The shaft of the glaive must be padded with closed cell foam 18” from the bottom of the blade toward the pommel. The pommel must be at least 3” in diameter. White glaives may only be swung with two hands. [This text “White glaives may not have quillons.” has been removed]

Black Glaive (Black weapon)
Black glaives must be between 7’to 10’ in length, with a maximum core diameter of 1”. The blade must be between 30” to 36” in length, 4” wide, and 2” thick. At least 1/3 of the weapon’s total length must be blade, up to the maximum blade size. The shaft of
the glaive must be padded with closed cell foam 24” from the bottom of the blade toward the pommel. The pommel must be at least 3” in diameter. Black glaives may only be swung with two hands. [This text “Black glaives may not have quillons.” has been removed.]



As mentioned in Chapter Four, new weapons must first be approved by the Council for safety requirements. Refer to Chapter Four
for more information.




Shields
Shields in Darkon are the most effective protection against physical attacks and will block an attack from all non‐siege weapons. A participant may only wear one shield at a time (except for bucklers, detailed below), and shields must be worn on the arm in order
to provide protection. There may be no shield spikes or other ‘hard’ decorations on the front or edge of a shield. Shields may not be thrown. Shields must be constructed with a solid plywood core at least 1/2 " thick, and the wood must be well padded on the front, outer edges, and corners, with no less that 1½inches and no more that 6 inches of foam from the outer edge of the core. The wood may contain holes for handles and fitting, but holes to simply to remove weight are forbidden. Any protrusions should be sufficiently
padded.
All shields must have a cloth or PlastiDip®. Shields are held by straps or handles, which are bolted to the wood on the back of the shield. All exposed bolts or sharp edged handles must be filed down or padded. The area immediately around and in between the straps does not require padding, but must still be safe.

If a shield receives three solid hits from a shield‐destroying weapon (glancing blows do not count.) [This text “and the hit must strike the front facing of the shield)” has been removed] it is considered destroyed and much be dropped. If a particular Relic or spell will penetrate a shield, it will be stated in the description of the Relic or spell. A shield may be made in any style, shape, or size according to the character type restrictions of the participant. The size of a shield is measured by the shield’s largest dimension. If a shield is larger than 36" it is considered to be a tower shield.

Shields that fasten to the arm, leaving the hand free, are called bucklers. Bucklers must be between 12" and 18" in size and may be made from 1/4" thick wood.A participant may wear one buckler shield on each arm, but may not use both a buckler and a normal shield. Bucklers, as specified in this rulebook, are considered shields but are strapped to the arm and made with lighter materials.

As such, shield breaking weapons will destroy them with two hits(this includes mages shields; if they follow the specifications, outlined in the rulebook,for bucklers). Because it is difficult to remove a buckler during combat, any hits to an already destroyed buckler(still strapped to a participant's arm) will count as a normal hit. Again, because it is difficult to remove a buckler during combat, any hits to a buckler which is strapped to an injured arm(i.e. light wound)shall count as though said arm was struck directly.
Last edited by Sir Tyriel Firebrand on 2013-12-26, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-12-17

Cosign as is...

...though I wouldn't mind terribly if "(except for bucklers, detailed below)" were removed from :

"A participant may only wear one shield at a time (except for bucklers, detailed below), and shields must be worn on the arm in order to provide protection."

One shield, bucklers included.
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Snudge » 2013-12-17

Withdraw the opposition
Reasonable points were made against my objections, logically cannot oppose it
Last edited by Snudge on 2013-12-17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-12-17

Snudge wrote:Nurgle is Opposed
Sorry man

Don't like the daggers or javelins sections.
You just proposed to make every dagger I use in the game illegal. None of them have a 6-9 inch striking surface, they are stab tips on a handle. No stab tip is 6-9 inch long.

The current rule is: "Daggers must have a striking surface between 6" and 8" in length."

So yeah, they do.

The "tip" doesn't have to be 6-8" now and won't need to be 6-9" later. They count the "courtesy padding" as part of the "striking surface". Basically, anything past the area where you hold it is the "striking surface".
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Snudge » 2013-12-17

See previous post
Last edited by Snudge on 2013-12-17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-12-17

I think you are thinking of this wrong dude. Also, I'm on the NC, I'm aware of what goes on there. I took this entire proposal to the NC and its all safe. Things change man.
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-12-17

Snudge wrote:then every weapons marshal that has ever checked my daggers is allowing non legal weapons onto the field.
Its a puff ball on a stick, there is no striking surface aside from said puff ball.

You have no other foam on your dagger? Just the head?

Then yes, it is against the rules. I know of at least two weapons marshals that have measured my daggers before, including the "striking surface" part to make sure they were long enough, so I know that some care and check into it. I don't know how you've not had this happen ever.

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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by fingers630 » 2013-12-17

I can say that if you need a 6"+ striking surface on a dagger, most of them fail. Including all of the ones Verdune sold for years, that have never been failed through check in.
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Inox » 2013-12-17

Bottom line, the rule as it stands is 6"-8" for dagger striking surfaces.

Now, most daggers have a clear handle, and then some foam & tape that builds up to the arrowhead-like tip. That is fine.

What is not fine is all basically bare-shaft handle followed up by an arrowhead top. That's always been illegal under Darkon rules.

What this proposal does is actually give you a little MORE flexibility with daggers. It takes nothing away from them.
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by PadreCaedes » 2013-12-17

I know several people on the field will be opposed to the alteration proposed for bars. There are several fighters who use 6-6.5 foot war bars much as one uses a blacksword.

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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-12-17

You can still do that. It just makes the construction requirements the same.
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Varnak_the_UnNamed » 2013-12-17

I see no problems with your proposal. As was said before the daggers already require a length of blade, javelins have been play tested for safety (though I don't see the need to change the head from red) and the rules for axes is spot on in my opinion. I think with that change it will make it less likely for an axe to flat someone, especially two handed.
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-12-17

The reason I changed the head from red is so that you can make silver, grey, holy, tips on them. It helps make things look at little better is all.
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-12-17

Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:
Snudge wrote:Nurgle is Opposed
Sorry man

Don't like the daggers or javelins sections.
You just proposed to make every dagger I use in the game illegal. None of them have a 6-9 inch striking surface, they are stab tips on a handle. No stab tip is 6-9 inch long.

The current rule is: "Daggers must have a striking surface between 6" and 8" in length."

So yeah, they do.

The "tip" doesn't have to be 6-8" now and won't need to be 6-9" later. They count the "courtesy padding" as part of the "striking surface". Basically, anything past the area where you hold it is the "striking surface".


Pretty much, this is obviously a wording issue, not a prop issue. Perhaps for this one weapon, word it as describing the distance to the "stabbing surface" or "weapon tip".. or hell, just make a minimum weapon length overall.

Snudge wrote:Nurgle is Opposed

Javelin heads should not be the same color as their pommels. A safety ruling by the NC states, they MUST be red.


We got rid of the red tip when we determined that since there's a 3" top and a 2" bottom, it's fairly easy to ascertain the "killy end". also, you still have the option to make the back black/brown (to match your shaft) and the tip silver/gray. Boom problem solved.
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-12-17

Fixed the bar issue.
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-12-18

Sir Tyriel Firebrand wrote:The reason I changed the head from red is so that you can make silver, grey, holy, tips on them. It helps make things look at little better is all.


I think a better solution for silver, holy, etc is to use colored tape rather than a colored cover.... didn't that make it through Senate recently?
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Sir Sturmbjorne » 2013-12-18

I believe it comes into affect Jan 1 Aethilgar.
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-12-18

Sir Sturmbjorne wrote:I believe it comes into affect Jan 1 Aethilgar.


Excellent!

So there is no longer a game mechanic reason to remove the red cover from javelins?
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-12-18

Yea, but I think that it would make sense to have javs have the same requirement as all the other weapons.
It would also make the game look better. Having a sweet kit made with PD stuff is awesome, then you look t a PD javelin and its awesome up until you see the red colored head.
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Varnak_the_UnNamed » 2013-12-26

Flail and Morning Star (Yellow weapon)
Flails and morning stars must have a shaft with a length of 8” to 12” (including the pommel), which has a solid core and is well padded except on the gripping surface. They must have a cloth and foam "chain" with a length of 8” to 12”. The chain is composed 18 of 1" to 2" wide foam links spaced no more than 1/2" apart and the foam links must either be attached to the chain, or be packed tightly enough that they do not expose more than½” of the chain. The head of a flail must be made from a core‐less piece of foam, which may be no more than 1’ long and must be at least 3" wide. The head of a morning star must be a round piece of coreless foam with a diameter between 6" and 8". Flail and morning star
heads must be coreless because they are head legal weapons.


Did you mean to write that a chain is composed 18 of 1" to 2" wide foam links spaced no more than 1/2" apart?

Seems like a type-o, but wanted to make sure.

Also, under white axe you say that the total handle must not be longer than 1/3rd the overall length which makes sense if you are considering the rest to be shaft. I would just clarify, other wise you will end up with some really short axes, and you say total length less than 36". So maybe something like total length can be between 18" and 36", the shaft must be well padded except for up to 12" used for a handle, or some such.
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Re: Darkon Weapons Change Proposal

Post by Sir Tyriel Firebrand » 2013-12-26

The 1/3 rule encompasses all the lengths. It takes courtesy padding into account. Also, I don't know how that 18 got in there. Nothing is changed in flail/morning star. Its copied from the rulebook lol.
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