Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

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Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Snudge » 2013-06-17

To discuss the merits, and change the rules. We've sort of derailed the bellum reg thread.

I propose to add the following to the rules. We'll make the verbiage pretty as we go along

Anyone under the age of 21 attending an overnight darkon event, where alcohol is/will be present, is required to be identified by some means. If a person who is so identified is found to be consuming or has clearly consumed alcohol they are removed from the event. If the participant is under 18,the person who signed their waiver is contacted.



Here's my reasoning.
Imagine a drunk 15 year old at a darkon event. They've lied to us about their age to participate in the first place and potentially even have a signed waiver from a parent who doesn't care about our rules on age.
The cops come for whatever reason, and see this person in their intoxicated state. Who is then ultimately responsible? The person who brought the minor, the country said person is in, the club, the persons parents?
All an ugly slippery slope that we ought to be protecting ourselves from.

I don't want to goto 18+ as a club, I just want us to protect ourselves and enable us to self police.

-500 Neon Green 1 inch wide tvyek wristbands with shipping: 30.91$ Using UPS ground shipping. Would be delivered in 3-8 business days. Each wristband would be 6 cents. From wristbandexpress.com



~Edits~
Ericson's point, yes it should, thanks
To include cost point & clean up spelling/grammar
Last edited by Snudge on 2013-06-17, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-17

Snudge wrote:Anyone under the age of 21 attending an overnight Darkon event and/or where alcohol is/will be present is required to be identified by some means. If a person who is so identified is found to be consuming or has clearly consumed alcohol they are removed from the event, and the person who signed their waiver is contacted.


Co-signed and completely agree.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by fingers630 » 2013-06-17

I have no problem with this. The reaction of the club should not be "remove younger players from the game to shield them from dumb * happening" it should be "Stop dumb * from happening".

With increased dues there should be no reason the club cannot splurge for night club style wrist bands for every campout, to be worn by persons under the age of 21 for the duration of the event. And if there is an incident, the player should be sent home, given a verbal warning, and have their parent contacted.

I understand Inox's view of protect the club and have no issue with that, I just dont feel preventing those under 18 from participating (when it hasnt for 25+ years now) is not the correct solution.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Ericson » 2013-06-17

Snudge wrote:Anyone under the age of 21 attending an overnight darkon event, where alcohol is/will be present, is required to be identified by some means. If a person who is so identified is found to be consuming or has clearly consumed alcohol they are removed from the event, and the person who signed their waiver is contacted.


Shouldn't it be:

Anyone under the age of 21 attending an overnight darkon event, where alcohol is/will be present, is required to be identified by some means. If a person who is so identified is found to be consuming or has clearly consumed alcohol they are removed from the event. If the person is under the age of 18, the person who signed their waiver will be contacted by a member of the EB.

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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-17

To further move the discussion:

-Inox- wrote:
People getting drunk is fine. Minors getting drunk is a huge problem.

People getting naked with each other may be fine. People getting naked with minors is a huge problem.

Minors even being *present* for some things may be a huge problem, and you aren't going to lock down the above behaviors without involving way too much invasive oversight.


Knowing who you are giving a beer to is important.

Knowing who you are "inviting to your tent" is important.

Getting naked (and other stupid *) in public places is unwelcome at Darkon events.

(It is important to draw the distinction between 'people getting naked with each other' in public and in private. I care very little what people do in the privacy of their tent so long as it is consensual and has no lasting ramifications to Darkon at large. I do care if Darkon events become so laissez-faire that our image and reputation are tarnished... or that we are banned from yet another park... or that our legal status is drawn into question.)
Last edited by Sir Aethilgar on 2013-06-17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-17

Ericson wrote:
Snudge wrote:Anyone under the age of 21 attending an overnight darkon event, where alcohol is/will be present, is required to be identified by some means. If a person who is so identified is found to be consuming or has clearly consumed alcohol they are removed from the event, and the person who signed their waiver is contacted.


Shouldn't it be:

Anyone under the age of 21 attending an overnight darkon event, where alcohol is/will be present, is required to be identified by some means. If a person who is so identified is found to be consuming or has clearly consumed alcohol they are removed from the event. If the person is under the age of 18, the person who signed their waiver will be contacted by a member of the EB.


Make the sponsoring country responsible for supplying a (standardized) symbol, flag, tag, etc for all their under 21 members. Nomads would then be supplied one by Darkon.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Lord Valfryn » 2013-06-17

I like that we are putting bracelets on people UNDER the age, that way it would involve less bracelets, and make them more noticeable.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Snudge » 2013-06-17

Looking into it in terms of identifying people vs cost. Tyvek wristbands seem to be the way to go.
Orders of 500 cost around 15 dollars, no idea on shipping.

Also I'd lean away from making a standardized symbol by country, one country might want a flag on a under 21 members tunics, other country might have a star or chaos symbol somewhere else. I think it'd be simpler and better all around if there is 1 darkon approved identifier. I'm not saying each country can't have its own internal method, like flags, symbols etc. But something easily identifiable to the club as a whole is the way to go I think. It also helps that they are relatively inexpensive.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by fingers630 » 2013-06-17

Yep Id say something bright, yellow or pink, that can easily be covered by some cloth if they are playing a sketchy, but someone can say, "show me your wrist" if they catch them with a beer, or trying to purchase beer at a tavern.

This is really such a simple solution that we should have instituted years ago.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-17

Snudge wrote:Looking into it in terms of identifying people vs cost. Tyvek wristbands seem to be the way to go.
Orders of 500 cost around 15 dollars, no idea on shipping.

Also I'd lean away from making a standardized symbol by country, one country might want a flag on a under 21 members tunics, other country might have a star or chaos symbol somewhere else. I think it'd be simpler and better all around if there is 1 darkon approved identifier. I'm not saying each country can't have its own internal method, like flags, symbols etc. But something easily identifiable to the club as a whole is the way to go I think. It also helps that they are relatively inexpensive.


With the cost so low; I withdraw the suggestion of country provided indicators.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Inox » 2013-06-18

Sir Aethilgar wrote:To further move the discussion:

Knowing who you are giving a beer to is important.

Knowing who you are "inviting to your tent" is important.

Getting naked (and other stupid *) in public places is unwelcome at Darkon events.

(It is important to draw the distinction between 'people getting naked with each other' in public and in private. I care very little what people do in the privacy of their tent so long as it is consensual and has no lasting ramifications to Darkon at large. I do care if Darkon events become so laissez-faire that our image and reputation are tarnished... or that we are banned from yet another park... or that our legal status is drawn into question.)


First things first. Yes, knowing who you are giving a beer to is important. Knowing who you are going to have sex with is important. None of this has anything to do with the risk to the game by having underage people present at overnight and/or drinking events.

If you believe that all of Darkon has the good judgment and situational awareness to not make mistakes where the above are concerned, we should also discuss this wealthy overseas official I know who desperately needs someone to help him move money out of his country.

Not to mention, I don't think we have, nor should we have, some sort of family-friendly relationship to uphold. We won't be banned from parks or have legal status issues provided we aren't coming into conflict with the law. The surest way we can do this is by not having minors present at overnight and/or drinking events. The dumbest way to do this is to try to eliminate drinking and other adult behavior; that would strongly diminish attendance for the sake of a handful of underage members who would still be a liability.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Snudge » 2013-06-18

I certainly see the point you are raising Inox, and I agree with you to a certain point in limiting risk to the club.
But we were 16, waiver in hand at some point. Some of the best events when I was under 21 I ever went to were campouts, which are overnight affairs with alcohol around. Even though I didn't drink, there was still lots of things to get into and fun to have. I think a medium between out right banning the under age, and not caring about the risk is what my proposal does.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Kai Firebrand » 2013-06-18

Overnight events honestly should be 18+ not only to protect the game itself but its members. Boffers are now even more popular and have more publicity than ever before, which in turn raises the risk of our game being targeted by media as well as law actions. We are in fact one of the few games that has not very bad times in regards to law suits compared to Amtgard in the local area and more ( SCA suit as well ). This I believe is more to do with our smaller profile in regards to national level of play compared to these games and number of overall players ( more players makes for higher chance of incidents ). Boffers are no longer an underground style of community like when all of us were going to campouts.

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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-19

There was a discussion recently among the Nobles regarding the poor treatment of a female player by a male player. A long standing vet spoke wisely on the topic:

"There is an awful lot of aggressive & creepy commentary flying around, and even if people tolerate it, that doesn't mean it doesn't undermine their comfort level with (& desire to show up to) Darkon.

We do have to come down hard verbally & in terms of game discipline on people who think that they have free reign to berate, belittle, or otherwise objectify others for their entertainment.

I feel like the general rule should be to treat other players with respect and good sportsmanship. If you think this is becoming impossible, take it to an Elder or NC member, and/or remove yourself from the situation.

People need to have it impressed upon them that it's a game with mostly open membership, not a private house party they're throwing, and we aren't all subject to whatever side of themselves they feel like showing us.

It certainly can't hurt to make an announcement (regarding regarding general civility and acceptable behavior), but I don't think we're obligated to do so before policing blatant *.

I definitely am going to add some lines about consideration & respect for your fellow players next newbie speech I do."

That vet... was Inox... and I agree with this statement in particular:

"People need to have it impressed upon them that it's a game with mostly open membership, not a private house party they're throwing, and we aren't all subject to whatever side of themselves they feel like showing us."

Show some class. Show some maturity. Enjoy your drink; don't get sloppy with it. And keep your clothes on in public places. As Inox says, creepy behavior definitely effects people's comfort and desire to show up to Darkon.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by jayjay » 2013-06-19

fingers630 wrote:I have no problem with this. The reaction of the club should not be "remove younger players from the game to shield them from dumb * happening" it should be "Stop dumb * from happening".

With increased dues there should be no reason the club cannot splurge for night club style wrist bands for every campout, to be worn by persons under the age of 21 for the duration of the event. And if there is an incident, the player should be sent home, given a verbal warning, and have their parent contacted.


you can't do just under 21. you need one for over 21 as well. if it's just under 21, someone could just take it off. yeah, there are repercussions for getting caught, but they could still be drinking until they're caught. but it's still until they're caught. amtgard groups have been doing this for a few years, and generally do three colors; under 18, 18 - 21, and over 21. different colors and patterns are used at each campout.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-06-19

jayjay wrote:
fingers630 wrote:I have no problem with this. The reaction of the club should not be "remove younger players from the game to shield them from dumb * happening" it should be "Stop dumb * from happening".

With increased dues there should be no reason the club cannot splurge for night club style wrist bands for every campout, to be worn by persons under the age of 21 for the duration of the event. And if there is an incident, the player should be sent home, given a verbal warning, and have their parent contacted.


you can't do just under 21. you need one for over 21 as well. if it's just under 21, someone could just take it off. yeah, there are repercussions for getting caught, but they could still be drinking until they're caught. but it's still until they're caught. amtgard groups have been doing this for a few years, and generally do three colors; under 18, 18 - 21, and over 21. different colors and patterns are used at each campout.

Just like a bar or a club (or a hammer or a flail?). It's easy to remove x's... But you can't remove x's AND have the right wristband to prove that you are 21 and over. We should do the same if we're going to do it at all... Something to signify under 21 and something to signify over.

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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-19

Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:Just like a bar or a club (or a hammer or a flail?). It's easy to remove x's... But you can't remove x's AND have the right wristband to prove that you are 21 and over. We should do the same if we're going to do it at all... Something to signify under 21 and something to signify over.


This sounds reasonable and, again, the costs are not outrageous.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Inox » 2013-06-19

Snudge wrote:I certainly see the point you are raising Inox, and I agree with you to a certain point in limiting risk to the club.
But we were 16, waiver in hand at some point. Some of the best events when I was under 21 I ever went to were campouts, which are overnight affairs with alcohol around. Even though I didn't drink, there was still lots of things to get into and fun to have. I think a medium between out right banning the under age, and not caring about the risk is what my proposal does.


I was 14, waiver in hand. The age was not always 16; we upped it because we thought it was a good idea to do so. It was.

If we are so set on 16, why not go back to 14, then?
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Amazing_Iltztafein » 2013-06-19

Sir Aethilgar wrote:
Amazing_Iltztafein wrote:Just like a bar or a club (or a hammer or a flail?). It's easy to remove x's... But you can't remove x's AND have the right wristband to prove that you are 21 and over. We should do the same if we're going to do it at all... Something to signify under 21 and something to signify over.


This sounds reasonable and, again, the costs are not outrageous.

And the bonus here is that EVERYBODY would have to get one, so there is no way that somebody could not check in, which past EBs have said happens from time to time.

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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Inox » 2013-06-19

Sir Aethilgar wrote:There was a discussion recently among the Nobles regarding the poor treatment of a female player by a male player. A long standing vet spoke wisely on the topic:


Seriously?! You are posting stuff from the NC discussion on the public board? Don't do that.

Again, none of that has anything to do with the risk to the game due to minors being present for drinking and/or overnight events.

Sir Aethilgar wrote:Show some class. Show some maturity. Enjoy your drink; don't get sloppy with it. And keep your clothes on in public places. As Inox says, creepy behavior definitely effects people's comfort and desire to show up to Darkon.


Agreed. However, some people are going to be creepers, some people are going to get too drunk & make poor choices, etc. We can suspend or ban people who really cross lines, but lines crossed are lines crossed. When they get crossed with minors, it's got the potential to be a nuclear bomb.

For what? So that a tiny percentage of our overall membership can start a little bit earlier? If we're so set on this 16 noise, why not go back to 14 like it originally was? Why have age requirements at all?

People whom the state regards as children should not be thrown into events where there's going to be drinking, adult behavior, overnight stays, etc. ...and there will be these things. There have been for over 25 years now, and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

We can't control everyone's actions, and we can't instill perfect judgment. What we can control is the age of participants. Since that's our biggest risk, not addressing it is just ostrich behavior.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-19

Darkon has been active and allowing minors since 1985? That's 28 years with zero issues relating to minors. You'll have to pardon me if I don't buy into the slippery slope, doom and gloom, nuclear OMG some thing ~might~ happen this time! If I did, I'd have to tick down the list of other things that ~might~ happen which could cause issues to Darkon. Sport injuries? Sexual/physical abuse? Alcohol poisoning? Heat stroke? Heart attacks? Drug use? We can go on and on with 'what ifs' and totally wreck the game... or we can police Darkon on a case by case basis as has been done for the last three decades.

In the end; this proposal is about identifying the age group of players currently allowed by Darkon at ~all~ events. It has been co-signed and will be brought to the Senate for discussion. If others wish to change the ages allowed by Darkon, then feel free to write a proposal, have it debated, and float it to the Senate. That power is in your hands; let the club decide.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Sasaki » 2013-06-19

I would rather see 18+. Campouts are not family friendly outings and non-members are not allowed to attend without a signed waiver. Making campouts 18+ would clear this all out without Darkon having to play "Nanny".

If you're giving someone a beer that you don't know, card them. Or just don't give beer out.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Inox » 2013-06-19

Sir Aethilgar wrote:Darkon has been active and allowing minors since 1985? That's 28 years with zero issues relating to minors. You'll have to pardon me if I don't buy into the slippery slope, doom and gloom, nuclear OMG some thing ~might~ happen this time!


I feel like you deliberately ignore what I say so as to continue to advance the same points. Here is what I said, and you read, on the previous Bellum thread:

Yes, some of us (myself included) started well under 18. However, it was an entirely different game.

● When I joined, the president was 19, and the oldest guy was 23. People made grandpa jokes about him. The game was basically a bunch of teens, whereas now the average age is probably pushing 30.
● We had no insurance, corporate status, cash resources to speak of, etc.
● The rulebook was more of a pamphlet, and there was NO Senate, EB/BoD, or NC.
● Feast didn't even exist for the first couple of years, and when it did, it was a potlock in an American Legion Hall w/o booze.
● We used ridiculously unsafe blue foam weapons that often didn't even have covers.
● There were maybe 40 of us on a really good day.
● There were no land rules, no Darkon coins, and we kept records in a recipe box, on index cards.


What we did back in the day we did in a very different environment, both in terms of what the game was, and in terms of the social climate.

Today, we are a large organization with legal standing and significant visibility. Just in the past several years we've been on NPR, the local Fox affiliate, in the Baltimore City Paper, on the Smithsonian Channel...and a few others I am forgetting. We had a movie made about us that was at SXSW, Silverdocs, etc. You can get the DVD on Netflix. When I was President, and they were filming Role Models, people from Hollywood called me and asked me some questions.

Folks in 1986 had no idea that Darkon even existed. The term LARP hadn't even been invented. Today, it's a different story.

Bellum had the FBI there last year. We are on the radar, and we can't hope to go on as we do without eventually putting the entire club at risk. Today, we live in a society that is a lot less tolerant of problems involving minors, and is just much more litigious in general.

Have we had incidents? Of course we have. Numerous incidents, any number of which (but for a considerable amount of luck & the good graces of those involved) could have blown up into real PR nightmares and legal hassles.

I know you've been out for a while, but sit down in some camps and ask around. So many ridiculous things have happened with minors over the years. We can thank our lucky stars that a few of the most awful things that happened lately didn't happen with minors, or we would definitely be under some extreme scrutiny at the very least.

Sir Aethilgar wrote:If I did, I'd have to tick down the list of other things that ~might~ happen which could cause issues to Darkon. Sport injuries? Sexual/physical abuse? Alcohol poisoning? Heat stroke? Heart attacks? Drug use? We can go on and on with 'what ifs' and totally wreck the game... or we can police Darkon on a case by case basis as has been done for the last three decades.




Like everything else in life, it's a balancing test.

We look at what the risk is to the game, and what we can reasonably prevent.

We aren't doctors and we can't evaluate people as medical professionals and make sure they don't take the field if they have health issues. In fact, Cailen already had a heart attack in a Noble Tourney. He still won. :D

Can we prevent heat stroke, or someone drinking too much? Of course not. We can prevent 16 & 17 year old minors from playing the game, just like we prevent 14 year olds from playing the game.

Maybe you aren't aware, but any legal problems that happen for Darkon will be FAR worse if they involve a minor. You do realize this, right? Even an injury we couldn't reasonably foresee or prevent. Everything.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Sir Aethilgar » 2013-06-19

Make a proposal and send it to the Senate if you want the age to change again.

This proposal is about identifying those under 21 at overnight events.
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Re: Identifying those under 21 at overnight events

Post by Inox » 2013-06-19

Sir Aethilgar wrote:Make a proposal and send it to the Senate if you want the age to change again.

This proposal is about identifying those under 21 at overnight events.



I may do that. In the meanwhile, I will state my opinion as I see fit.
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